Wednesday, 9 September 2020

Xavier is a mad man bitten by Rabies infected dog: [] Re: [aryayouthgroup] Re: [TheBecoming] PORTUGESE CONQUEST IN INDIA AN UNTOLD STORY IN OUR HISTORY BOOKS


On Wed, 9 Sep 2020, 16:09 Madhampatti53 [Keralites], <> wrote:


Do you know that Hitler was a Christian and was supported to the hilt by Pope Pius XII in all his atrocities and they wanted to make the Pope a SAINT! This man justified hispolicy of silence about NAZI atrocities. 
The Spanish and Goa Inquisitions are some of the worst incidents in Chritianity and can never be forgotten. All in the name of JESUS CHRIST! 
It may even change his foul language to a more civilised language.


On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 1:45 PM Xavier William [Keralites] <> wrote:

Caste was there long before the British came, long before Jesus was born. You can see it in the Manusmrithi as well as in the Arthasasthra. Ram cutting off Sambuk's head was based on caste discriminations. But to Manusmrithi having caste you say that some Chinese traveller had said something and to the argument that Ram killed Sambuk you say that it is not in the original Ramayan without specifying which is the original and which is the duplicate and how you can make out the difference between the two. There is no point in debating the point if you keep shifting the post.
Sanghis in their attempt to rewrite history deny there was any caste and assert that there was only varna. When I point out that Parasuram salughtered Kshatriya women and unborn children because caste was by birth, the Sanghis do not reply, but are back again with the same argument that there was only varna and no caste.
I am not a historian and there is no point in finding out who brought in cste equations into India. The fact is that it is a reality and if we have not been able to do away with it even after 73 years then there is no point in discussing it especially when Sanghis keep shifting the posts.
According to there was no Varna or caste system in prevedic times. But discrimination came soon afterwards as Dasyus and tribals were downgraded.

On Wed, 9 Sep 2020 at 13:12, sanjeev kulkarni [aryayouthgroup] <> wrote:



By the smoking gun syndrome, you can conclude who doctored the past. Just ask who benefits from the crime and you can guess who is a suspect number one. Can you show any caste strife in India before 1857 even though the caste system prevailed for several thousand years?


And I didn't say caste was brought in by the British.  They only distorted the facts and exploited strife created by them. Same as Hindu Muslims were divided but Jinnah and British sowed the seeds of a separate nation which was not there earlier. Islam was not created so that Pakistan could be created. It was already there which was distorted and used to achieve this goal.


As for Shambuka's story even most of the Hindus do not understand the rationale behind it even today.

Ram chopped off Shambuka's head must be viewed in historic context. Life of ascetics was limited to a very small section of society, mainly because the society had to support their living.  They were supposed to contribute to pure knowledge (see the distinction between pure science and applied science).  It was like research into unknown fields with uncertain benefits, and society had to support it because it was expected one day we will find some use to that research.  Even today a very small percentage of really bright students are given grants for pure science research and given access to state of the art labs and facilities.  You need to be qualified to avail of these facilities even today and it is not viewed as an atrocity on unqualified.  No non-matric person will be allowed to use labs, facilities etc. thus blocking limited resources to really deserving.  Given the limited number of people in those societies, there were strict rules who can do what.  If unqualified people started living off efforts of society in large numbers, society would have become weak economically, politically, militarily and become vulnerable to external aggression and internal strife. So the rules were very clear who can do what to keep the balance of society. And the king was entrusted to enforce this system.  The story goes like -some Rushi came to Ram and showed him the dead body of a child and asked what was happening in his kingdom? It is considered a metaphor and the real complaint by intelligentsia was a large number of people are switching to ascetic, celebrate life which was killing the 'future generations'. Only a very small percentage of people were allowed this lifestyle because society would have had less burden to support. If a large number of people stop procreating children you can see what happens in Europe - where DINK (double income -no- kids) policy has brought the society on the verge of collapse.  There won't be many Europeans left in just a generation and they will be overrun by barbarians. So the story goes, Ram investigated and punished and prevented the people who were not socially allowed to live ascetic, celebrate lives.  Even China's one-child policy has resulted in one youngster supporting four ageing parents/grandparents. China's viability as a strong nation has come into question due to this.  You can imagine what would have happened if a large number of people without families had been allowed during Ramayan period.


Now fast forward to today's Europe.  Do you know what is happening today in Europe and how migrant Muslims are outnumbering them?  It is the result of DINK policy of Europeans.  Now imagine this was the period several thousand years ago and you were the administrator.  What would have been your best solution to prevent people from certain age groups from following DINK policy?  Exactly that was what Ram did.  It was not atrocity but saving society from imminent catastrophe the same being experienced in today's Europe.  Today's Europeans following DINK policy are the cultural decedents of Shambuk. You suggest any solution and you enter the shoes of Ram.



On Wednesday, 9 September, 2020, 05:58:34 am IST, Xavier William [aryayouthgroup] <> wrote:


The question is who is doctoring the past.
Cast was prevalent in India even in the past and now you say that it was brought in by the English.
Manusmtirthi is permeated with caste and you say that there ae many Manusmrithis.
Rama chops off Sambuk's head and you say that that is not the original Ramayan.
If you keep shifting the goal post not real debate is possible.
My stand is that in the past things were not democratic anywhere including in India. Might was right. There is no point in judging the past in terms of modern democratic ideals. But thee is no point in whitewashing it either. Even worse is to paint one's own heritage as utopian while blaming invaders for all our problems. Let the dead past bury its dead.

On Tue, 8 Sep 2020 at 12:26, sanjeev kulkarni [aryayouthgroup] <> wrote:

I gave you the reason as to why now you should not be 
interested in the past.  I also like to concentrate on
the future.  But some people keep harping on the past.
That was the reason why I showed how past is doctored
propaganda driven by political motives. We should not pass
comments unless we are prepared to take them to the logical

If you come across any piece of propaganda or counter-
propaganda, take it as a political agenda and keep it at
that level. Going into academic details will blur your
vision from the core issue of politics. You may comment on
whether that politics is harmful or useful in strengthening
the nation....  That becomes a different aspect.  e.g. Hitler
preached racial superiority to Germans who were committing
suicides in hundreds of thousands after losing the 1st world
war.  Society had lost confidence and any initiative was 
defeated before it was even started.  So he used his oratory
skills to instil confidence and pride using racial superiority.
You may debate whether the doctrine of racial superiority was
right or wrong.  But you cannot deny that it served the purpose
for which it was used - namely creating self-confidence and
pride in Germans.  Even false doctrine can be used for good
purposes.  You should concentrate on this aspect instead of 
debating whether it is right or wrong.  Concentrate on the 
purpose and not tactics. Understand the purpose and crux of the 


On Tuesday, 8 September, 2020, 05:38:51 am IST, Xavier William [aryayouthgroup] <> wrote:


I am not interested in the past. It is the future that matters.

On Mon, 7 Sep 2020 at 23:35, sanjeev kulkarni [aryayouthgroup] <> wrote:

(1)    Past violence should also be authenticated. It has a fishy origin as clarified earlier. I asked many so-called lower caste people and found that they are very happy about caste discrimination in their favour and are not interested in 'justice' and equality. 


(2)    Also, there is no institutionalized exploitation for lower castes.  If at all, it is against the so-called upper castes. But since they do not depend on patronage, they don't care much. 


(3)    Caste strife started only after the British changed educational curriculum after the failure of the 1857 freedom struggle.


(4)    Lower castes and powers that be continued the British policy as it was convenient to pursue unjust policies against the really powerless sections like Upper castes.  They do not have a vote-bank or money or muscle power.  


(5)    Most of the stories attributed to Manusmruti are fake.  There is not a single authenticated and documented atrocity which is supposed to be prescribed by Manu.



(6)    I understand the documents found  in 1932 by Sir Augustus Fritz in China which date back to 200 BC dynasty of the Chinese emperor Chin_Ize-Wang mentions Manusmruti as the one prevailing in India for several thousand years. And it mentioned the number of stanzas (shlokas) of Manusmruti as 683.  Whereas the Manusmruti being circulated in India today have around 2400 shlokas.  It seems Manusmruti mentioned by ancient Chinese and the one being circulated in India are different or at least someone has inserted texts which were not in the original Manusmruti.  This is a job for the scholars and archaeologists but I suspect someone has doctored the text of Manusmruti. I do not know the authenticity of this find in China. But there is always a reason to be sceptical about supposed Manusmruti laws and their authenticity. Don't accept any claims, for or against, blindly.



On Monday, 7 September, 2020, 07:08:00 pm IST, Xavier William [aryayouthgroup] <> wrote:


There were slaves, serfs and low castes all over the world in the agricultural age though they were more than a minority.
In the past might was right and a well organized 10% could hold the unorganized majority as slaves or serfs. The equation remains the same today with the organized minority of politicians and employees holding the unorganized majority to ransom.
With industrialization they needed workers who could read, write and make decisions for themselves. Educated populations could not be enslaved like uneducated farm workers. Educated workers began to assert themselves and so we have democracy. There is no point in judging the past in terms of modern democratic ideals. But there is no point in whitewashing the past either. Even worse is to glorify the violence in one's own heritage while condemning identical violence in others' heritage. 

On Mon, 7 Sep 2020 at 10:29, sanjeev kulkarni [aryayouthgroup] <> wrote:



The social structure was formed and followed by the whole society. It was not dictated by just 2-3% of the people.  And if that was the case, we have to assume 97% of the people were stupid and only 2-3% were a treasure of wisdom. It is a bold assumption that we can see injustice in the structure today but for several thousand years the actual supposed victims did not feel the heat. No one follows any idea unless they see some benefit for following it.  See even in Koran Mohammad had to offer 72 virgins and rivers of honey and milk to the believers in his ideas. Every principle in Koran prescribes reward for following it. Allah knew unless people see the benefits they will not follow even 'god'. Were Brahmins more intelligent and resourceful than god? Did they succeed where Allah did not dare to tread? If they did, give the devil its due! They got what they rightfully deserve.


Now the society was made to follow the religion just like circus animals are trained to perform various acts.  Their trainers imbibe in these animals what will give them rewards and what attracts punishment and then animals are accustomed to following the rituals without thinking.  Religion is just like that. If people behave like circus animals they should not complain against others...........  


Also, if the social structure changes, the so-called oppressed communities become powerful economically, numerically or politically. They do not become the idol of tolerance and justice.  They themselves follow the same hierarchy just by replacing earlier community on the top by their own community. But the hierarchy continues. So present-day oppressed or historically oppressed are only the cradles on a giant wheel coming down and going up in cycles.   No one is willing to change the giant wheel. They only want to be at the top of the hierarchy.  So they have no moral justification or grounds to protest.  Their idea of revolution and social change is limited to keeping themselves at the top and others down and not changing the hierarchy. Ask those who are vocal about it whether they are willing to forego Government benefits based on caste. They will justify it that several hundred years ago their ancestors were exploited so they deserve the benefits even if unjust to others who did not commit the 'crime'.  So crime continues only the actors change. 


So my contention is - there is no reason to point finger on any particular class as oppressed and oppressor. It is just temporary high and low of the giant wheel of social hierarchy.  If and when others get a chance, they follow the same system.


No one class is responsible for creating this system.  Everyone contributed because they saw some benefits in it.  It was a collective idea and wisdom of masses.  No point in singling out anyone, especially they did not see anything wrong in it for several thousands of years.  The idea is attractive to them as long as they are placed on the higher rung and are beneficiaries.  Those getting benefits of reservations everywhere and financial benefits even when their lot is improved and such largesse are not justified will not be willing to forego them in the name of justice and equality for which they go blue in the face lecturing 'higher castes'.


So in a nutshell - (1) no one caste or community is responsible for the social hierarchy.  (2) Those benefitting from the reversed discrimination will not be willing to forego them voluntarily in the name of justice and equality.  They pay only lip service to these principles and preach others to following them but never practice themselves.  




On Monday, 7 September, 2020, 07:03:11 am IST, Xavier William [aryayouthgroup] <> wrote:


We humans are hierarchical with a pyramid power structure. But before I go into it we have to go back in time.
In the preagricultural age humans lived in small isolated but nomadic groups. These groups were egalitarian and transparent and everyone knew everyone intimately.... But once we settled down to the agricultural way of life our social structure changed completely and we became hierarchical with a pyramidal power structure and in most societies this pyramid came with the priests at the top. This resulted in social anomalies. The injustice in these systems were not apparent. That is why it is called structural violence which is violence or injustice built into the system.
Most social movements in the past were directed against this structure. Thus in India, the Charvakas, the Buddhists, the Jains, the Sikhs etc were directed against this structural form of injustice with the priestly Brahmins at the top. They - the Brahmins - seldom had to get involved in the direct violence.
Thus in Kerala the Nairs offered their women to the Brahmins and they considered it a privilege. They never offered their women to the Kshatriyas though they had the political clout.. Obviously religious or superstitious power is often more critical than the power of armies.
In Europe too there was a pyramidal hierarchy with the priests at the top and then came the ruling class - Lords, landowners etc - and the serfs at the bottom. People rebelled against this too and it resulted in the reformation movement in the church.
In the wake of the French and Russian revolutions they were the priests who were massacred first by the people.. Because the people knew that the priests were behind all the exploitation though outwardly they were peaceful..
Luckily or unluckily in India we never had any violent rebellion as in Europe. But people like Ambedkar identified the Brahmanical interests as the evil though Ambedkar himself was adopted and educated by a Brahmin.
Now our power structure has changed completely. We now have organised politicians and trade unions at the top of the pyramid instead of the priestly class as in the past. These well-organised  powermongers appropriate to themselves all the power and privileges at the expense of the unorganised majority. However the priests still have considerable clout all over. Thus the President of the US is the most powerful man in the world. But neither he nor the other political leaders have the kind of clout that the Pope has though the latter has no army worth the name.

On Sun, 6 Sep 2020 at 06:19, mohannatarajan2001 [TheBecoming] <> wrote:


Brilliant exposition.hats off to u


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Original message --------
From: "sanjeev kulkarni [aryayouthgroup]" <>
Date: 05/09/2020 23:38 (GMT+05:30)




Thanks for your reply.  But I am not any wiser if Brahmins are continuing any atrocities which are still institutionalized today. That was the crux of the issue.

can make out other castes were committing crimes and caste discrimination.  I do not understand what was the idea of calling it "on behalf of Brahmins?" Were Brahmins reluctant or not capable or considered it a dirty job not worthy of their status?  Why others obliged if they did not agree with the system?  On what basis you say it was on behalf of Brahmins and not on their own by these other castes?


I can figure out, caste hatred started after the failure of the 1857 freedom struggle. Hatred started between Hindus and Muslims and between Brahmins and non-Brahmins.  The reasons are obvious even to the blind.  British colonial masters realized who had challenged their power in India and who had the intellectual capability to analyse colonial exploitation and awaken sleeping society.  In Maharashtra, the list of Brahmin freedom fighters is very impressive compared to others.  So it was in the interest of British colonial masters to sow seeds of caste discrimination when it was practised for thousands of years without social strife. New educational policy and books giving distorted history were circulated. (Same tactics were used by America to brainwash the Taliban against USSR  in Afghan war). If it was really exploitative as is made out to be, I do not think people would have continued it for several thousands of years.  So there is something fishy here.  All the so-called caste atrocities mentioned in Manusmruti are on paper.  But you hardly find any actual events documented and authenticated.  So the question is who actually translated Manusmruti and told the people that this is what is written in Manusmruti?  Why it was not practised anywhere?  You come across Muslims stoning to death people committing adultery. But you never come across anyone putting hot lead in the ears of lower caste person for listening to Vedas.  It is more of hype than reality. These myths are deliberately circulated even today. 


Also, Manu, Ram, Krishna, Vishwamitra, Valmiki (who wrote Ramayan) were not Brahmins.  All the scriptures etc. who suppose to give a high place to Brahmins in social hierarchy were not authored by Brahmins.  And there is no mention of any revolt by lower castes in thousands of years if they were really suffering.  It was also practically impossible for 2-3% people to exploit 97% of people for several thousand years. So the question is who invented these myths and why and why are we carrying the same without questioning the facts and motive?


I think Brahmins are a handy target to shield real culprits having money and power because Brahmins have no money power and no muscle power and they are only 2-3% so no political clout either.  People, of course, will hate those who make progress not just in India but abroad also without any patronage. So any myth supporting their hatred is accepted without questions.   The real perpetrators of atrocities have political, muscle and money power but others have no courage to talk about them lest there will be a price to pay. So Brahmins are a soft target. 

I hope in all fairness, at least you will give justice to this reality in future. 



On Saturday, 5 September, 2020, 03:01:54 pm IST, Xavier William [aryayouthgroup] <> wrote:


In Kerala they were the Nairs, the Sudra class, who were in the forefront of all the violence on behalf of the higher classes as was seen at Sabarimala two years ago.. For some strange reason there are only a handful of Kshatriyas in Kerala and no Vaisyas to speak of. So all the dirty work was done by the Nairs-Menon-Nambiar-Pillai classes. Kerala was ruled by the Hindu Kings of Cochin and Travancore and their armies and police were packed with the Nairs-Menon-Nambiar-Pillai classes. So all the atrocities on the lower castes were perpetrated by these classes on behalf of the higher castes. Even now there is unbridgeable animosity between the NSS representing the Nair classes and the organisations such as the SNDP representing the Ezhavas, the most populous of the Backward castes as well as between the NSS and the KPMS representing the Pulayas who form the most populous section of the scheduled castes.
As for Brahmins entering the fray, they did not have to do it as the Kshatriyas did all the fighting on behalf of the Brahmins. In fact all over the world the priestly classes seldom resorted to violence. Instead it was always done by the soldier classes no only in India but elsewhere also.
Violence does not have to be physical always. There is what is called structural violence which is violence built into the social system. Slavery and the Serf system were examples of such structural violence. The caste system was another of such examples of structural violence.
In the past societies were highly hierarchical and such systems of structural violence were universal almost all over the world..... So we dont have to single out any society and blame them for their discriminatory policies towards slaves, serfs, Dalits, women and other weak sections of the past societies. But what the Sanghis do is they try to whitewash the atrocities of the Vedic system as is well described in the Manusmrithi, the Arthsasthra and other scriptures even as they highlight the atrocities committed by other sections of Indians such as the Muslims and Christians..
What I am trying to convey is that it is time we bury the past and work towards a common future which will benefit everyone. Confrontational politics based on religion is not an option for India. Our future lies in reconciliation and not in confrontation. 

On Sat, 5 Sep 2020 at 10:31, sanjeev kulkarni [aryayouthgroup] <> wrote:


I am working for a reformist organization.  Can you give me a 
list of atrocities which Brahmins have still institutionalized 
Any social evil like Sati, untouchability or crimes against
lower castes etc.?  Or social evils like organized crimes, riots,
burning of public property in the name of justice etc.? In Maharashtra 
state at least I meticulously check the news items of any atrocities 
committed by Brahmins against the lower castest, but have never found 
any names of Brahmins so far in any of the crimes mentioned above. 
Almost always non-Brahmins are involved who are always at the forefront
of cursing Brahmins.  Even so-called Dalits commit the same if not worse
atrocities on the castes lower than them. Maybe they will be in Kerala? 

I just wanted to check if we are deliberately harping on the dead past
or it is still relevant. 


On Friday, 4 September, 2020, 09:09:07 am IST, Xavier William [aryayouthgroup] <> wrote:


For over 2000 years the Brahmanic hordes crushed the Sudras, the Dasyus, the Chandalas and the Dalits. The Manusmrithi, the Arthasasthra and other ancient Indian writings attest to that. The Kerala Aithihya mala or "the legends of Kerala" written hardly a hundred years ago also attests to the despicable practices of the caste system.
When the Channar women wanted to cover up their breasts who beat them up? the high castes!
Who opposed the Dalits from even walking in the vicinity of the Vaikom Temple? The high castes?
Who stood in the way of the dalits entering the Guruvayoor temple? The Hindu king of Cochin?
Now Sanghis are trying to sweep under the carpet all the crimes they perpetrated on other Hindus. In its place they are fabricating their own version of history of denial of the caste system  in spite of all the evidence to the contrary.
In the process they blame the Islamic and European invaders for India's problems.
I do not know about the history of the Islamic kingdoms of India. But it is certain that the Muslims were in the Minority. Sanghis speak all the time about the massacre perpetrated by Tippu on the Hindus in his efforts to convert them. But even now the Muslim population in Mysore is hardly 22% which would not have been the case if Tippu had adopted violent methods for conversion. Similarly Akbar was a tolerant Muslim with many Pujaris and Hindu astrologers advising him.
The Portuguese attacked Bijapur which was then under Muslim rule. Why does not our Sanghi brag about it? The Portuguese were merely 1600 in numbers. The rest of the Portuguese army consisted mainly of Hindus. Why dont the Sanghis mention such instances of the Hindus siding with the invaders?
There were hardly 30000 English men in India and they ruled over 200 million Indians, most of them Hindus. How could they have done it without the connivance of the caste Hindus?
The Sepoy Mutiny was put down with the help of the Hindu Gurkhas for which they were rewarded more than generously.
Though the Jalianwala Bagh massacre was ordered by Gen Dyer they were the Hindu Gurkhas who went in and finished off the wounded with their Kukris.
In fact the British empire depended mostly on Hindu employees in administering the country - Muslims were averse to working under the British for religious reasons.
So History tells us that the caste Hindus aided the British in subduing the Indians and in keeping them subdued or we can say they hunted wholeheartedly with the hounds. Now their descendants the Sanghis are  making up stories of how their ancestors ran with the hunted. In the process they are trying to hide the real history of India based on the barbarous exploitation of the low castes and the Dalits by the Brahmanical class and their pimps - yes in Kerala the Nairs were pimping off their women to the Brahmins until hardly a century ago.
You have glorified RANI ABBAKKA CHOWTA and her exploits. Do you think that the Portuguese were alone in attacking the Rani? There were plenty of Hindus on the Portuguese side as weell. narrates the History of the Rani. In that she is said to have taken refuge in a Mosque. She had also the Bijapur Sultan as well as the   Zamorin on her side.
She was finally defeated by the Portuguese with the aid of her treacherous husband - a Hindu.
So my dear Dava Saran Sanghi please stop this nonsense of rewriting history to suit the Sanghi Agenda. The Sanghis have power in India not because the majority likes them but because of the incompetence of the congress and the opposition

On Wed, 2 Sep 2020 at 14:40, Deva Sarran Samaroo [TheBecoming] <> wrote:




"All new ideas good or bad, great or small start with a one-man minority" - anonymous

A man without god is a man. A God without man is nothing!!

The greatest knowledge is the knowledge that there is so much more to know and the greatest discovery is the discovery that there is so much more to discover


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