Saturday, 20 June 2020

[] Re: [TheBecoming] Re: [TorontoSikhCoalition] Re: [SIKH NATION] Re: Are religions equal


Dear Avtar Singh Dhaliwal,
In spite of your MD and your obvious education you are no better than others when you orate on truth.
What exactly is this "Truth" you brag about?
Religions and myths started about 50000 years ago. These religions and myths were transmitted by word of mouth and they kept mutating and changing from mouth to mouth. Then some 3000 years ago we began to commit these myths and religions into books. This prevented mutations of these myths and religious concepts.. It was then that people began fighting each other in the name of religion, each boasting that their book alone contained the truth and that all others were superstitions. What is more, people began instilling these myths and meaningless superstitions into the children by rote at an age when they were not in a position to understand what was being taught to them. All of today's ardent believers are products of such blind teachings by rote. Some have the courage to question these mythical nonsense spread by religions. Others do not have the courage to take on these religions mainly due to the superstitious fears instilled into them by religions about the dire consequences of questioning these religions and their cock and bull stories. It is because of this fear instilled into them at an early age that even highly educated professionals like you parrot whatever your uneducated ancestors taught you by rote.
You harp on the violence by the Mughals on the Sikhs. How about the conquest of Kashmir by the Sikhs? Why do you highlight the violence by the Mughals while turning a blind eye to the violence by the Sikhs?
It is humanism and not religion that we need. Why dont you question all the nonsense instilled into you when you were a child instead of parroting about truth and other religious nonsense. Stop believing and start questioning!

On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 at 21:27, Avtar Dhaliwal [TheBecoming] <> wrote:

Mr. Gulati,
Thanks for bringing out the historic background for the assassination of Guru Arjan Sahib ji. You are quoting Jehangir's biography and promoting that he thought Guru Arjan was a HINDU. True if there were nothing dominating but Muslim and Hindu religions and the Brahmans were his advisors. The Sikhi started by Guru Nanak had a minuscule population at the time in India. With your gullible mind and Snatan Dharam infestation, it is very difficult for you to understand the basic philosophy of the SIKHI. Since Guru Nanak based his philosophy on the TRUTH and shed away all the non-sense philosophies and rituals, his followers believing in his TRUTH originated from Hindus and from the Islamic population. Maintaining the same philosophy of Truth Guru Arjan scribed Aad Guru Granth Sahib and completed the construction of the Golden Temple. YES, THE SIKHI WAS FLOURISHING and both Hindus, as well as Muslims, became the followers.
And after his assassination, the Hindus and Muslims that were intelligent enough to know the difference between TRUTH and FALSE, converted into SIKHI.  The others following Brahmanic false ideology became enemies of the SIKHI and now people like you becoming members of RSS are fooling Hindus and Sikhs with the dilution of the SIKH PHILOSOPHY. SHAME ON YOU, you cannot be a real Brahman or a SIKH.  
Was Guru Arjan Sahib ji promulgating VEDAS or VEDANTIC philosophy at the time of his arrest or the TRUTHFUL PHILOSOPHY OF GURU NANAK? No, he did not become opportunistic like the Brahmans to get favors from the Islamic rulers, however; the Brahmans becoming enemies of Guru Nanak and his TRUTHFUL philosophy were sucking to the Islamic rulers.
You are trying to impress gullible people as the Brahmans do with your false pretense of being a Sikh and telling twisted hypothesis of the SIKHI, Shame on you. If you want to be a Sikh, then be a SIKH and believe in the ten GURU SAHIBAN and the GURU GRANTH SAHIB.
And stop your non-sense Bs of false implications of snatan dharma.

Avtar Singh Dhaliwal, MD

On Saturday, June 20, 2020, 09:36:12 AM EDT, DevinderSingh Gulati [sikhnation] <> wrote:


And it needs to be pointed out that Guru Teg Bhadur offered the supreme sacrifice to save his own religion. Till the time of Jehangir Guru Arjan was seen as a Hindu peer while Jahangir considered it his duty to spread Islam all over the world. Has anything happened since Jahangir to change that view in Auranzeb's time? Here is documentary evidence in Jahangir's own words:
When 1 became emperor it occurred to me that 1 should  change my name lest it be confused with the caesars of Anatolia.^ 
An inspiration from the beyond suggested to me that the labor of emperors is world domination Qahangiri), so I named myself Jahangir and made my honorific Nuruddin [light of religion] because my accession occurred at the time of the rising of the majestic greater luminary, at a time when the world was being illuminated.

Later Jahangir goes on to write:
There was a Hindu named Arjan in Gobindwal on the banks of the Beas River.^^ [28a] Pretending to be a spiritual guide, he had won over as devotees many simple- minded Indians and even some ignorant, stupid Muslims by broadcasting his claims to be a saint. They called him guru. Many fools from all around had recourse to him and believed in him implicitly. For three or four generations they had been peddling this same stuff. For a long time I had been thinking that either this false trade should be eliminated or that he should be brought into the embrace of Islam. At length, when Khusraw passed by there, this inconsequential little fellow wished to pay homage to Khusraw. When Khusraw stopped at his residence, [Arjan] came out and had an inter- view with [Khusraw]. Giving him some elementary spiritual precepts picked up here and there, he made a mark with saffron on his forehead, which is called cjashcja in the idiom of the Hindus and which they consider lucky. When this was reported to me, 1 realized how perfectly false he was and ordered him brought to me. I awarded his houses and dwellings and those of his children to Murtaza Khan, and I ordered his possessions and goods confiscated and him executed.
It is only now that Sikhs are a separate religion. In Guru Teg Bahadur's time they were considered a panth.
i.e. a sampada of the sanatana dharma.

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 11:46 PM ALAG URVINDER <> wrote:
Excellent awakening 🙏

From: <> on behalf of DevinderSingh Gulati <>
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2020 11:26:33 AM
To: <>
Cc: Deva Sarran Samaroo <>; DevinderSingh Gulati [sikhnation] <>; Jasmeet Kaur <>; Baldev Singh <>; Jagjit Ahuja <>; Understanding Sikhism <>; <>; Dr. kulwant Singh Virginia USA <>; <>; <>; <>; <>; <>; <>; <>; <>; <>; <>; <>; Yahoogroups <>; <>; <>; <>; Amardeep K Kahlon <>; <>; <>
Subject: Re: [TorontoSikhCoalition] Re: [SIKH NATION] Re: Are religions equal
Here is a slice of History that you should know about Avtar Singh.

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 7:35 PM Avtar Dhaliwal [TorontoSikhCoalition] <> wrote:

No, all religions are not equal, it's the human beings that are having alike physical structures. Since religions are man made and vary, according to geographical nature, language, and dominance because of invasion or domicile, they differ from original locations. But they all claim that God is only ONE, invisible, unfathomable, and "near or far" according to individual perceptions...
Not comparing every religion except discussing religions of Indic origin. Hinduism is not ONE religion but a compliment of multiple beliefs. It has 330 million gods and goddesses and even includes animals, trees, rocks, and tombs.
The Sikhi believes there is only ONE reality in the concept of GOD that is not anthropomorphic, any form or feature though unfathomable.
Compared to every religion of Indic origin, Sikhi stands alone in service above self. Besides being altruistic, pluralistic, equality in every aspect (Manas kee jaath sabhae aeke pahchanbo), it has shown sacrifice, not for any selfish reasons but for the human rights and saving other religions. Examples for sacrificing to save other religions mainly Hinduism in India, Guru Arjan Dev Ji and Guru Teg Bahadur Sahib ji gave their lives. I do not know, neither I could find similar sacrifice in any other religion.
The Islamic rulers in India were committed to the conversion of Hindus into Islam by persuasion, oppression, or persecution. Because most of the Hindus and Muslims were joining the Sikhi for being popular with Truth, Equality, egalitarian, honesty, and trustworthy religion. The Islamic religious leaders joined by the Hindu religious leaders together protested to remove Sikh Gurus in one way or the other. This feud kept on burning until the Islamic ruler, Aurangzeb, took over the command of the Indian Kingdom.  He was very committed to Islam and wanted to convert the whole of India into a Muslim country. He ordered his Governors to convert at least 125,000 Hindus into Islam every day by persuasion or persecution. And that created chaos among the Hindu populations of India, particularly the Hindu leaders hiding in Kashmir valley. The Brahman leaders started praying to the Hindu gods and goddesses and could not raise any impact on the chaos created by Aurangzeb. Their leader got up one day and announced his dream. He said, "In his dream, he visited Lord Shiva and got advised to visit the IX Nanak for their solution. Even though in an attempt to finish Sikhi, the Brahmans got fifth Guru tortured and murdered earlier in Lahore; they approached the ninth Guru, Guru Teg Bahadur for a solution to stop Aurangzeb from butchering Hindus and converting them by force into Islam. While the deliberations were going on, his son (Gobind Rai 9 years old) playing around with his friends came and sat in his lap.... He asked the reason for the solemn atmosphere. He was told the reason that Aurangzeb's Governors in Kashmir valley and in Delhi are forcefully converting Hindus into Islamic religion. "Thus, for protecting the Hindu religion, there is a need for a Holy person to communicate with Muslim Rulers. If they can convince and convert the Holy noble leader representing Hindus, then the rest of the Hindus will get converted as well. And we are looking for such a noble leader."
Gobind Rai at the age of nine said, "Father, I do not know of any holier person than thou to do such a task." The Brahmans waiting for such an opportunity agreed with Gobind Rai's opinion. Thus, at the age of 54, Guru Teg Bahadur on the orders of Aurangzeb was assassinated on Nov. 24, 1675.
Mr. Gulati and his Hindu paraphernalia, you have been asking what makes Sikhi the unique religion. Let me ask you all a very simple question, please name any Hindu/Brahman that has given his/her life for others? I don't think there is any. Most of the prayers and worshipping gods/goddesses are for personal gains only. There is nothing like in the Ardass of a Sikh asking for "benediction of ALL."(Sarbat da bhalaa).

Avtar Singh Dhaliwal, MD

On Friday, June 19, 2020, 05:33:20 AM EDT, DevinderSingh Gulati [sikhnation] <> wrote:


Is this still Rawel Singh's proposition? " .....everyone believing in God treats all religions equal."
Rawel Singh is acting coy. That is because in the face of the sufi video I gave out before he can no longer maintain that.
We had heard then that in Sufism tarikat is subordinate to shairiat.
I am now giving a link to another video so he can refresh his memory..

All Sikh "scholarship", as I pointed out, is quackery.
And I mean all, not just Rawel Singh or Hardev Singh.
It includes Harvard professor Harpreet Singh who runs an online Sikhi course.

Rawel Singh gave out "God made everyone equal".
He needs to revise that to " "God made everyone potentially equal".
Gurbani affirms that men are unequal.
There are manmukhs and there are gurmukhs and we need all to become gurmukhs.
Gurmukhs are those who are turned to the Guru.
Only those are turned to the Guru who has connected with their soul.

There are no Gurmukhs on this forum, let me be clear.
I had however earlier posted a video so that you can recognize a Gurmukh when you see one..

There is no need to be put off if Dr. Alok Pandey talks of Krishna or Saraswati.
In your particular cultural context these terms are alien to you.
You can simply replace Krishna with Akalpurkh and Saraswati with Naam if that makes more sense to you.
There is a particular personal content each one carries in the present life from our early upbringing and cultural milieu.
This will not carry over to the next life.
In his next life Dr. Pandey may be born in a Christian family in a Christian country.
His early personal content then in that life will be centered around Jesus.
He may even change his religion in that life, but the personal content will be quite different from what it is now.

In the video Dr Pandey talks of the Jivatma and the delegate of the Jivatma in us..
The Jivatma is a part of God in the transcendence and remains always with God.
It is an important evolutionary concept of Indian thought that is the unique contribution of Sri Aurobindo.
It goes even beyond the Gita that mentions only the antahkaran.
But this deviates from our present discussion.
I mention it because it offers the means of reconcilian to Bhai Satpal to realign his preaching to the authentic Gurbani.
Satpal says the soul belongs to God - it is not our identity.
Our identity is psychic being that Dr. Pandey mentions.

On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 9:16 PM DevinderSingh Gulati <> wrote:
We are considering the proposition "are all religions equal"...
It led to another proposition "all men are not equal" for they operate from different levels of psyche.
Sanjay Dixit, who operates from the intellect - which is more than can be said for most men - refuses to consider the proposition.
He does not want to be dragged down from the level he is stationed at. He would therefore stick with the proposition "religions are different".
There is no dispute there. All religions, whether dharmic or non-dharmic accept that.
Dixit then goes on to explain that the God of the non-dharmic religions is a God of the intellect while the God of dharmic religions is God of the consciousness.

While dharmic religions may each believe that they are the greater, they concede that other dharmic religions have the right to believe likewise.
They cannot think of obliterating the other for their belief. But it would be foolish to give that right to a religion that wants to harm them.

Gurpreet Singh Ahuja wrote to me:
"As a Sikh, I have no issue with whatever religion anyone practices. One should practice ones faith with sincerity, humility, and with love - be it Sikhism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, or whatever else a person chooses as his or her path to spiritual upliftment".

This is what I wrote back to him:
"You might perhaps have heard of the Spanish conquest of the Aztecs in 1521.
Now the Aztecs dealt with the Spaniards in their own conception.
They believed it was gold they were after. They had simply no conception of The Spanish Requirement of 1513 (Requerimiento).
The 1513 Requerimiento demanded the local populations to accept Spanish rule and allow preaching to them by Catholic missionaries on pain of war, slavery or death.
The Spanish Requirement, issued in the names of King Ferdinand and Queen Juana, his daughter, was a mixture of religious and legal justifications for the confiscation of New World territories and the subjugation of their inhabitants. At the time, it was believed that Native Americans resisted conquest and conversion for one of two reasons: malice or ignorance. The Requirement was putatively meant to eliminate ignorance.
As the Spanish Requirement matter-of-factly sets forth, so brazenly from five centuries' retrospect, God created heaven and earth, and the first man and woman from whom all are descended. God directed St Peter to establish the Roman Catholic Church. St Peter's descendant, the Pope, lives in Rome. The Pope has given the New World territories to the King of Castile and directed the conversion of the Indians. If they listen carefully, the Indians will understand and accept what is happening as just; if not, Spain will make war on them.

So " One should practice ones faith with sincerity, humility, and with love - be it Sikhism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, or whatever else a person chooses as his or her path to spiritual upliftment" is your on conception of the matter.
Have you made any attempt to find out what the Islamic formulation is?"

This is why I said the right of equality cannot be granted to non-dharmic religions.He finds this very hard to digest.
Now Hardev Singh says, "my religion is the greatest". It is a perfectly dharmic proposition. No other dharam will quarrel with him for that.
But Rawel Singh said: "God made everyone equal and everyone believing in God treats all religions equal."
Does he still believe that, or has this discussion changed his view?
Will he explain to Gurpreet what his view is now?

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 4:53 PM DevinderSingh Gulati <> wrote:
"The one truth expresses itself in many ways" is an expression of dharam. It is not applicable to Abrahamic religions.
For when the Rigveda statement "Truth is one" "Ekam Sad Vipra Bahudha Vadanti Agnim Yamam Matriswanam Ahuh" was formulated;
there were only contending dharmic traditions (six of them). The Abrahamic religions were nowhere in sight. They came later.
When the parchar of Sikhi commenced, it was dharam. In dharam the same truth is expressed differently in different levels of your psychology.
The mann, budhi,ahankaar are translated in Freudian psychology as ego, superego and id. But there is no equivalent to higher consciousness in western terminology.
The 'one' God of the Abrahamic religions is interpreted from an aspect of intellect.
This God exists as a separate entity as 'one'. It is not one with its creation.
All the contending dharms in Rigvedic times had one thing in common.
They all saw one as one with creation.
The formulation here is: I am one ith every being.

In dharmic traditions, Jasmeet, it is allowed to question.
The current Sikhi as we see it no longer takes doubts.
It has rigidified into a religion.

I have accepted Rawel Singh's view that Sikhs are not Muslim.
I now give him another video to view so he can tell me how the core teaching of Sikhi is different from the core teaching of dharam as described here.
If he can show me the difference, then I will also accept that Sikhs are not Hindu.

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 10:56 AM DevinderSingh Gulati <> wrote:
@Jasmeet. Nanak taught Dharam. Sikhs have made it into a religion. By religion is meant they made it exclusive. Dharam is inclusive. Dharam is sanatan eternal.

According to dharam all human beings are equal. Religions have different views. Some religions claim God favours their particular religion....
Sikhi does not make such a claim, but our discussion is; are religions equal.
Sikhi states religions are not equal. Only the path enunciated by Nanak is true.
The path of the Muslims and the path of the Hindus is false, it says.
This is the interpretation of both Hardev Singh and Rawel Singh whom I mentioned in my original post.
They may not be noted Sikhi scholars, but they both are active on social media.

Religions are different, that is agreed. But what is the core behind religions we are examining.
Is the core of the Sikh religion Hindu or is it Muslim, is what I asked Rawel Singh.
Now Sikhi says, there is one sole reality. And that one has become the many.
"The one is in everything, and everything is in the one. And everything is the one."
This is the core teaching of Gurbani.
How is it different from the Isha Upanishad is what I ask Rawel.
The Isha Upanishad teaching is explained thus:

The Answer to this question is necessary.
Rawel Singh claims we (Sikhs) are neither Hindu nor Muslim.
Not Muslim I can understand, for the one of the Muslims is different from the one of Dharam.
If he can tell me how the one of Sikhi is different from the one of Isha Upanishad, he would have explained how Sikhs are not Hindu.

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 9:14 AM Deva Sarran Samaroo <> wrote:





From: <> on behalf of Baldev Singh <>
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 4:26:08 AM
To: Jasmeet Kaur <>
Cc: Jagjit Ahuja <>; DevinderSingh Gulati <>; Understanding Sikhism <>
Subject: Re: Are religions equal
All human beings are equal , our religion says, our Guru says iii

On Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 08:52 'Jasmeet Kaur' via Understanding Sikhism, <> wrote:
Did G. Nanak start a new religion ? 

Sent from my iPhone

On 16-Jun-2020, at 8:12 AM, Jagjit Ahuja <> wrote:

Awal Allah noor upaiha
Kudrat key sabh banday

Manas ki jaat sabh ek pehchanbo

On Mon 15 Jun, 2020, 9:35 AM DevinderSingh Gulati, <> wrote:
"ALL RELIGIONS ARE EQUAL"  asserts Rawel Singh. By what value?

Many assert that Bhai Mardana, Nanak's closest companion and Rabab player was the first Sikh.
Mardana continued to practice his Muslim faith, and his descendents even today are practicing Muslims even while they sing kirtan in Sikh shrines left behind in Pakistan.
Could he have been a Muslim and a Sikh at the same time?
No, Muslims are not Sikh, asserts Rawel Singh.
But they are equal.

Hardev Singh on the other hand asserts "sabte vada Satguru Nanak".
[Nanak is the greatest]

Did simple Mardana even know the intricacies of the two faiths?
Listen to this discussion, Rawel Singh and then tell me;
Are you Hindu or Musalman?

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