It is strange that this discussion is named as Comparing Philosophies.
In the past philosophy and theology were almost synonymous. But things have gone forward considerably in the last few centuries and the two disciplines have drifted apart irrevocably. Philosophy is now based more on science which in turn is based on evidence. In contrast theology is still based 2000 year old scriptures based on hearsay and myths. What is more philosophies change as we discover new things. thus the heliocentric theory as well as the theory of evolution have had a great impact on philosophy. In contrast, theology cannot change as they are mostly based on what our illiterate forefathers wrote hundred or thousands of years ago. Philosophy evolves whereas theology is fossilized.
So discussion about whether the qurbani or the vedas have very little to do with any modern philosophy. Instead they are more about whether the Sikh theology is better or the Vedic theology is better, an issue which can never be resolved since there is no evidence either way.
Discussing theology is like kicking a dead horse to bring it back to life- Xavier William
On Sat, 16 May 2020 at 19:37, Clive Digby-Jones cdigby-jones@ravenscroft.com [TheBecoming] <TheBecoming@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
How can I stop getting these posts and remove myself from this Group?--On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 1:58 AM HARDEV SINGH Virk hardevsingh.virk@gmail.com [TheBecoming] <TheBecoming@yahoogroups.com> wrote:Tarlochan Singh: U have posted a wrong video on Dastar Sira. It has nothing to do with Ram. Pl. Quote the exact Shabad to help Richa.H'S VirkOn Sat, 16 May 2020, 10:56 a.m. Tarlochan S. Nahal, <tnahal99@yahoo.com> wrote:Rucha,If you are trying to quote Gurbani. This is NOT Gurbani; this is a misquote:>Ik Ram Dashrath ka puttar Ik Ram jo sab mein ramya hoya.Please watch this short video by a Singh. It will open your eyes and will be a good primer for you in Sikhi, especially about Ram.RegardsTarlochan SinghOn Friday, May 15, 2020, 09:24:49 PM PDT, Tarlochan S. Nahal <tnahal99@yahoo.com> wrote:Dr Virk Sahib,My messages are in response to Mr.. Gulati, Richa Gautam and Mr. Koul. They seem to take turns in spearheading the misinformation campaign against Sikhi! Khalsa Panth will not take any of this crap from anyone. They cannot just get away with this kind of stuff. So my humble advice to them is to stop wasting their time and mind their own business. Sikh know better about Sikhi than anyone else. We have Sri Guru Granth Sahib as our perpetual spiritual guide which totally rejects Bipar religious hypocrisy.RegardsTarlochan SinghOn Friday, May 15, 2020, 08:56:26 PM PDT, Richa Gautam <richagautam@gmail.com> wrote:Ik Ram Dashrath ka puttar Ik Ram jo sab mein ramya hoya.If we cannot see that Ram, that attribute in a rat, cat, cow, monkey, snake, elephant and a tree, then how can we see it in a Bipar( Brahmin) or anyone.If there are texts in the Gurbani that are unquotable here then I question that message and its source. A Gurus love is all encompassing and will never misguide disciples to hate, exclude or disown.Beyond hate is love, beyond words is silence and beyond all beings is the light within.✌️Sent from my iPhoneOn May 15, 2020, at 8:07 PM, Tarlochan S. Nahal <tnahal99@yahoo.com> wrote:The Gurus used names of Hindu gods as "visheshan" or attributives for God; they had no belief in those devis or devtas and they never promoted such entities. If you have studied grammar, you would know what it means.It is the Bipar (Brahmin) that is not following the Vedas and not doing what a Bipar should be doing such as wearing a dhoti, wearing a tikka on the forehand (7 tilaks are expected), and a body (hair lock) on the shaved head. I am not sure if you or your ilk are doing any of that. Sikhs know much better about their religious practices and follow them more closely than you.One more thing, a Bipar cannot teach a thing to the Sikh of Guru Nanak because Gurus rejected your philosophy. Sikhs are not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but they are trying their best to follow the teachings of the Gurus. I can quote many things from Gurbani here, but those won't make you happy!Guru Nanak Dev was the first Guru in the World. There was none before him. You might have used this word for different swamis or religious scholars, but none of these Swamis started a new faith. It was Guru Nanak Dev who gave us the Mool Mantar that sums up the very nature of God and His greatness.We have a pretty good ideas of the size of the earth, sun and many planets and galaxies, but there is nothing that measure the scope and power of God.Guru Gobind Singh used word "Amitoj" to describe the power of the Almighty. Amitoj means that cannot be measured. There is NO INSTRUMENT IN THE WORLD that can measure the power and scope of the Almighty.. It is beyond description even though millions of people and sages have tried to describe it.I encourage you to continue your religious practice such as cow worship, idol worship, etc. because you are supposed to do it and we do not want to interfere in your religious affairs. You may also continue to worship rats, cats, bats, cows, monkies, donkies, birds, etc.., but Bipars should leave the Sikh alone and mind their own business. We have a better idea of Guru's teachings than anyone else. Your caste system, in which you have tried to trap the entire world, is now exposed.Bhai Satpal Singh may say whatever his understanding might be, but he is just one Sikh and what he says is not binding to the Sikhs. I have nothing against him. What Yogi Bhajan said is not binding to the Sikhs either.RegardsTarlochan SinghOn Friday, May 15, 2020, 06:26:49 PM PDT, DevinderSingh Gulati devindersingh.gulati2@gmail.com [sikh_news_discussion] <sikh_news_discussion-noreply@yahoogroups....com> wrote:Tarlochan Singh ji, you are extraordinarily naive because you have not read the upanishad. The Tat Khalsa prevents you and you keep yourself in ignorance.If you had you would have discovered there is absolutely no difference between the upanishad and Gurbani.. The upanisshad gave rise to six darshanas.Each of these darshanas has a founder, even if Hinduism is santan. What Nanak discovered ere the eternal principles of the vedanta darshana.In fact one third of the vedanta darshana, because vedanta darshana is propounded in three different ways ( to keep it simple - actually in more than three ways.)So let me quote from the Isha upanishad. It is a short upanishad of only eighteen verses.All this is for habitation1 by the Lord, whatsoever is individual universe of movement in the universal motion. By that renounced thou shouldst enjoy; lust not after any man's possession.Do you recognize the Gurbani in this? It is verse 1.Doing verily2 works in this world one should wish to live a hundred years. Thus it is in thee and not otherwise than this; action cleaves not to a man. 3Again do you recognise Gurbani in this? It is verse .
- But he who sees everywhere the Self in all existences and all existences in the Self, shrinks not thereafter from aught. Again Gurbani. It is verse six.
- He in whom it is the Self-Being that has become all existences that are Becomings7 for he has the perfect knowledge, how shall he be deluded, whence shall he have grief who sees everywhere oneness? Verse 7. Is Gurbani different from this?
- It is He that has gone abroad — That which is bright, bodiless, without scar of imperfection, without sinews, pure, unpierced by evil. The Seer, the Thinker,8 the One who becomes everywhere, the Self-existent has ordered objects perfectly according to their nature from years sempiternal. Do you recognize Gurbani in verse eight?.
- He who knows That as both in one, the Knowledge and the Ignorance, by the Ignorance crosses beyond death and by the Knowledge enjoys Immortality. Again it is Gurbani.
- He who knows That as both in one, the Birth and the dissolution of Birth, by the dissolution crosses beyond death and by the Birth enjoys Immortality. Verse fourteen of upanishad.
- O Fosterer, O sole Seer, O Ordainer, O illumining Sun, O power of the Father of creatures, marshal thy rays, draw together thy light; the Lustre which is thy most blessed form of all, that in Thee I behold. The Purusha there and there, He am I.
Now this verse sixteen of the upanishad is interpreted by the advaita part of the vedanta darshana as "I am God". that is ho Bhai Satpal explains Gurbani.
But Gurbani takes the vishistadvaita view of the vedanta darshana. That is hat I have been cautioning you about. That Sikhs should be vigilant about how Gurbani is presented.
- The Breath of things11 is an immortal Life, but of this body ashes are the end. OM! O Will,12 remember, that which was done remember! O Will, remember, that which was done, remember. In this verse seventeen there is talk of the immortal soul and mortal body. It is Gurbani.
Now look at this footnote on verse one "all this is for the habitation of the Lord":There are three possible senses of vasyam, "to be clothed", "to be worn as a garment" and "to be inhabited". The first is the ordinarily accepted meaning. Shankara explains it in this significance, that we must lose the sense of this unreal objective universe in the sole perception of the pure Brahman. So explained the first line becomes a contradiction of the whole thought of the Upanishad which teaches the reconciliation, by the perception of essential Unity, of the apparently incompatible opposites. God and the World, Renunciation and Enjoyment, Action and internal Freedom, the One and the Many, Being and its Becomings, the passive divine Impersonality and the active divine Personality, the Knowledge and the Ignorance, the Becoming and the Not-Becoming, Life on earth and beyond and the supreme Immortality. The image is of the world either as a garment or as a dwelling-place for the informing and governing Spirit. The latter significance agrees better with the thought of the Upanishad.That is exactly the rendering of the Gurbani. Satpal is rendering the Shankara vie. It is not Gurbani.I have not mentioned the other verses because the upanishad goes beyond Gurbani (having given rise to many darshanas), that you are not in a position to absorb, given your present state of mind. If you want to make a really diligent study then read this e-book: https://www.auro-ebooks.com/isha-upanishad/But I am afraid you are merely interested in making superficial noises. If you have the thirst for knowledge read the e-book.You ill then discover that Sikhism has a founder and vishistadvaita has a founder. Both are sampradayas of the eternal dharma.Both are identical. The practices of both are different; but they remain philosophically identical. Do not drag practices into this.You have already embraced some practices that are reprehensible to you as Rawel Singh has pointed out.Regarding Persian origin of the ved, Richa has already replied to you.
On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 10:45 PM 'Tarlochan S. Nahal' tnahal99@yahoo.com [sikh_news_discussion] <sikh_news_discussion-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:Mr. Gulati,Can you quote any line of Gurbani from Sri Guru Granth Sahib that you think is found in any of the Hindu scriptures? As Sardar S.P. Singh has mentioned, none of the Bhagats subscribed to any of the Vedanta philosophies. In fact, they were as rebellious to such thoughts as Guru Nanak Dev. They were all mistreted by the Brahmins. Bhagat Kabir and Nam Dev were physically assaulted for their beliefs. What makes you think Bhagats Ravidas, Kabir, Nam Dev, Trilochan, Dhanna, etc., were the followers of Vedanta philosophy? All the Hindu "isms" failed to produce any courage or heroism among the Hindus where they could come face to face with reality and deal with it. They were courageous until they met the foreign invaders. Whatever courage they had was subverted by Buddhism and Jainism over 2000 years ago whom you have almost gobbled up like a boa constrictor and claim as yours! You know in your heart that if there was No Khalsa, Hinduism would have been wiped out of India just like Buddhism.Gurus chose the Bani of those who were downtrodden, but had a real spiritual message to convey. This is the reason Sikhs do not want to touch anything related to Vedanta with 10-foot pole.. The Gurus certainly made references to some Hindu concepts in explaining their thoughts, but never promoted those concepts. For your information the Gurus never condemned Vedas. In fact, they mention them with respect. The emphasis in Guru Granth Sahib is on Naam Simran, good thinking and good deeds.According to the top Hindu philosophers and former President of India, Dr. Radhakrishanan, Hinduism is not a religion; it is a way of living.I would be grateful to you if you could answer these questions:1. Where did the Vedanta philosophy come from?2. Who started Hinduism and can your name any founder?3. What were Hindus before there was Hinduism. What did they believe in?The Gurus certainly used the prevalent vocabulary when when conveying their message and even used some names of Hindu gods only as "attributives" of God, this does not mean they somehow endorse them or the Hindu philosophy. I think that is the part that you have failed to understand.For your information Vedas and Vedic Sanskrit used Persian vocabulary and religious concepts of Avesta and Zoroastrianism. This is not a criticism of Vedas by any stretch of the imagination. What I am saying is that vocabulary and culture are all part of the regional heritage. You need to acknowledge that Sankrit did not originate in India and it came from the Persian region even though Vedas were composed in Punjab.Please read Asa Ki Var and see what Guru Nanak Dev says about the practices that you are trying to defend and shove down the throats of the Sikhs.Regards,Dr. Tarlochan SinghOn Wednesday, May 13, 2020, 10:18:05 PM PDT, DevinderSingh Gulati devindersingh.gulati2@gmail....com [sikh_news_discussion] <sikh_news_discussion-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:Sanatan Dharam has six darshanas. One of them is called vedanta darshana.The highest in vedanta is the nirgun Brahaman.So how can you claim Nanak's philosophy is very far from sanatan dharam.On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 10:34 AM S.P. Singh <sp.gndu@gmail.com> wrote:Gur FatehGuru Nanak adopted Nirgun philosophy which is far away from Sankaran Dharam . We can say near the Vedas.Sanatan way of life discarded people like Ravidas Kabir Namdev etc .SPSINGH ex VC--On Thu, 14 May 2020 at 4:30 AM, Rawel Singh brgrsa@yahoo....co.in [learning-zone] <learning-zone@yahoogroups.com> wrote:Hello,If Guru Nanak was here today he would be disappointed that his Sikhs have forgotten his teachings. They have gone back to chantings and symbolisation which do not purify the mind to make one a better person. He taught obedience to Hukam/Divine will/natural laws to lead a fruitful life.Rawel SinghS.P. Singh Dr.Ex-Vice Chancellor, Guru Nanak Dev University49, GF, Rajguru Nagar, Ludhiana(Mobile): +91 98142 25278
Clive Digby-Jones
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