Wednesday, 12 December 2012

Re: [www.keralites.net] Re: My Simple Questions to Dr. Thomas Mathai, Prince Thankachan and Samuel

 


സഹോദരന്മാരെ....
ദൈവത്തെ നിങ്ങള്‍ ഭൂമിയിലുള്ള ഒന്നിനെയും സാമ്യപ്പെടുത്തി സംസാരിക്കരുത്. ദൈവവും അവന്റെ സൃഷ്ടികളും നമ്മുടെ ചിന്തകള്‍ക്കും ഭാവനകള്‍ക്കും അപ്പുറത്താണ്. അവന്‍ നല്‍കിയ തലച്ചോര്‍ ഉപയോഗിച്ചാണ് നാം ചിന്തിക്കുന്നതും പ്രവര്‍ത്തിക്കുന്നതും. അതിന്റെ പരിമിതി അവന്‍ നിശ്ചയിച്ചതാണ്. ഈ ഒരു  കാര്യത്തില്‍ എല്ലാ മതസ്ഥരും ഒരുമിക്കും എന്നാണു  വിജാരിക്കുന്നത്. നിങ്ങള്‍ എന്തു കാര്യത്തിനും ഉദാഹരണം പറഞ്ഞോളൂ. പക്ഷെ അവനെ മാത്രം സാമ്യപ്പെടുത്തരുത്. വെള്ളവും ഐസും  തമ്മിലുള്ള ഉദാഹരണം നിമിത്തം സഹോദരന്‍ എന്തൊരു അബദ്ധത്തില്‍ ആണ് വന്നുപെട്ടിരിക്കുന്നത്. പോലീസ് ജലപീരങ്കിക്ക് പകരം ഐസ് കഷ്ണങ്ങള്‍ ഉപയോഗിച്ച് ജനത്തെ നിയന്ത്രിച്ചു അപകടം സംഭവിച്ചാല്‍ ഐസ് വെള്ളമല്ലേ അപ്പോള്‍ ഞങ്ങള്‍ വെള്ളമാണ് ഉപയോഗിച്ചത് എന്ന് വാദിച്ചാല്‍ എന്ത് ചെയ്യും?. ഈ വിഷയങ്ങളെ കുറച്ചുകൂടി പക്വതയോട് കൂടി സമീപിക്കാന്‍ സഹോദരന്മാരോട് ഞാന്‍ അപേക്ഷിക്കുന്നു. ചെറിയ കുട്ടികളോട് ഈ ഉദാഹരണവും കണക്കിലെ കളികളും വെച്ചു വാദിച്ചാല്‍ ഒരുപക്ഷേ കുറച്ചുകൂടി ഫലം കണ്ടേക്കാം. പക്ഷെ ഗ്രന്ഥങ്ങളിലെ സത്യവും വൈരുധ്യവും ബോധ്യപ്പെടുന്ന കാലത്ത് അവര്‍ക്ക് സ്വന്തം ബുദ്ധി ഉപയോഗിക്കേണ്ടതായി വരും. അത് കൊണ്ട് ദയവായി എല്ലാ മതസ്ഥരും എല്ലാ മത ഗ്രന്ഥവും അവരുടെ ഭാഷയില്‍ ഒരു തവണ എങ്കിലും വായിക്കുവാന്‍ ശ്രമിക്കുക.  അതില്‍ നിന്ന് തിരിച്ചറിയുക.
സ്നേഹത്തോടെ.
സലാം..

On 12 December 2012 09:22, ps koya <pskoya2004@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

You are arguing on the Creator (GOD).  So do not take examples on creations (Water and Ice).  I know that you have no doubt about the Creator who is one, a power behind the universe.  HE is the creator of everything including human beings.  And HE better know his creations how their mind is set to bahve.  The human kind has the tendancey to divert from their concentration.  To hold in the line of GOD or to refresh them the GOD has sent Prohets.  There is no need HIM to come earth and teach people. And never Jesus (peace up on him) has said that I am GOD.  And as you believes he never crusified himself to take all sins but crusified.  
 
And we believe that GOD is GOD and Jesus (peace up on him) is a Prophet and he has not crusified and will come again to earth and will marry and lead the world and will die.  What a wonderful world will be at that time and and if we all will be there.
 
We are in the process of building a good world as guided by God.  Our creation is not meant to argue on our creator but to obey HIM.  So, I requested to read well, understand about the universe- its length and width, how all these are controlled by GOD and thus what is HIS power.  Understand GOD and try to learn what is our duties here in this small tiny earth.  You can find that we cannot imagin HIS creations and thus how far can we interpret our Creator.  There is a limit on us for everything and with it don't think that we can see or touch the GOD.  HE is in such a position that we can see HIM there if we are on HIS path.
 
So, brother be on HIS path and I pray for you also to be on HIS path. 
 
Best Regards
PS. Koya
From: good news <muneermkkm@gmail.com>
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Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2012 7:40 AM
Subject: [www.keralites.net] Re: My Simple Questions to Dr. Thomas Mathai, Prince Thankachan and Samuel
 
Muslims in general have two main problems in understanding the concept and nature of God presented in the Bible. Because of their failure to accept these concepts they continue to raise any number of questions which only expose their pathetic spiritual discernment. First, they are completely foreign to the concept of plurality within Godhead i.e. Trinity. Second, they are totally ignorant of the fact that both divinity and humanity were united (incarnation) in one person i.e. Jesus Christ. These two doctrines pose insurmountable difficulties to Muslim mind. It is therefore our responsibility and privilege to help our Muslim neighbors in understanding the truths that pertain to eternal life as presented in God"s word, the Holy Bible. 
Ordinary Muslims may not go to great lengths to argue against Jesus" deity, although they assume that he is no more than a prophet. What needs to be emphasized with such individuals is not Jesus" deity, but his atoning sacrifice. Once a Muslim comes to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ he/she will certainly be led into all truth by God"s spirit as he studies and grows in God"s word.
Here let us examine six more fallacious arguments Muslim apologists love to use against Christians while failing to recognize their own ignorance and foolishness.
Fallacious tactic #1
Muslim apologists would come up with the following questions:
1. Can God be seen? (answer is "no")
2. Did people see Jesus? (answer is "yes")
Therefore Jesus is not God (according to Islamic reasoning!)
Is it sound reasoning? No, certainly not. Here is an example of the above reasoning:
1. Is water a hard substance? (answer is "no")
2. Is ice a hard substance? (answer is "yes")
Therefore ice is not water (according to Islamic reasoning!)
God, as he is, is invisible. God is neither part of nature nor within the power of nature. That"s why God"s word says He alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. Likewise, angels are also supernatural beings. They too cannot be seen by natural beings. However, angels can and did make themselves appear to humans particularly to the prophets of God. This is possible because of the powers they possess.  In the case of God, He cannot be seen both by humans and angels. However, by His power He makes Himself appear to both angels and humans (ex. Adam and Eve, Abraham and Sarah, Moses, Isaiah, etc.). God appeared in human form to Adam and Abraham. This shows us that man can see God if God appears in a form that man can perceive and comprehend. In the same way, when God appeared in the flesh as Jesus Christ, people were able to see him.
If Muslim asks €œCould God be seen?€�
Christians can respond in two different ways:
Response €" 1
Christian: First let me know, what do you think about the angels? Can they be seen or not?
If Muslim says "no" then they should be educated in their own religion. According to Quran and hadiths humans saw and conversed with angels. If Muslim says "yes" then ask them why can"t we see the angels around us all the time? They might say that we can see only if they make themselves appear to us otherwise it is impossible for us to see them. To this Christians should agree. Christians should explain, in the same way God cannot be seen but if he makes himself appear to us we can see him. In the case of Jesus, he is not God as God has always been, but he is "God in human form and nature". God made himself appear to humans as Jesus Christ who came into this world in flesh and blood. 
Response €" 2
Christian: Yes and no
Muslim: What do you mean by that?
Christian: God as only God cannot be seen, however, if God comes in human form and nature he can be seen.
Fallacious tactic #2
Muslims apologists ask another set of questions like these:
1. Was God born and has a beginning?  (answer is "no")
2. Was Jesus born and has a beginning?  (answer is "yes")
Therefore Jesus is not God (according to Muslim reasoning!)
God was neither borne nor has a beginning. God made himself appear to humans as the human being Jesus Christ. But in the case of Jesus Christ, God was not as what he has always been. God took on human nature and form. That is what Jesus Christ is. The union of divinity and humanity, which was made possible only due to God"s power, is unique and unparallel in the whole of creation. There is no such being anywhere else.Energy and matter are two different states and they have two different natures. They both can co-exist without cancelling each other out (eg. Iron and heat). Jesus as God remains as without birth and without beginning, but Jesus as man was born and had a beginning. Both natures, divine and human, co-exist without nullifying each other in Jesus.
If a Muslim asks a Christian the following question:
Was God born and has a beginning?
The Christian should respond with "no." However, when the Muslim asks the following question;
Was Jesus born and has a beginning?
The Christian should respond in the following way:
As God "no," but as man "yes."
Fallacious tactic #3
Muslim apologists can come up with the following set of questions to prove their intelligence:
1. Is God self-sufficient? (answer is "yes")
2. Was Jesus in need of things like food, water, rest etc.? (answer is "yes")
Therefore Jesus is not God (according to Muslim reasoning!)
God as God is always self-sufficient. But God in the form and nature of man was in need of things
like food, water, rest etc. Jesus was not God as "only God", but he was "God in human form and nature". The need was only for the human form and nature.
When a Muslim comes with the following question:
Is God self-sufficient or not?
Christian should ask the questioning Muslim:
You mean God as "only God" or as "incarnate-God"?
If the Muslim says "as God" then the answer is "God is self-sufficient and he does not need anything." If the Muslims says "as incarnate-God" then the answer is the opposite. But the Muslim may protest saying that there is no such a being as "incarnate-God." To which Christian should insist that there is such a being as "incarnate-God" and he is Jesus Christ. If the Muslim has a problem with that the Christian can invite him/her to study the "Injeel" (New Testament) with open mind and heart to see the truth about this himself/herself.
Fallacious tactic #4
Muslim apologists ask the following questions and feel that they have proved their point!
1. Is God immutable or changeless? (answer is "yes")
2. Was Jesus changing in body and intellect? (answer is "yes")
Therefore Jesus is not God (according to Muslim reasoning!)
Again, the same problem. Muslims who ask this kind of questions are incapable or forgetful of who Jesus was i.e. God in human form and nature. As God Jesus experienced no change but as man he did experience change.
For the question number 2 the Christian can answer in the following manner;
As man yes, but as God no.  
Fallacious tactic #5
Muslim apologists sometimes appeal to the scriptures and interpret them according to their "reasoning!"
1. Do you believe that God is your God? (answer is "yes")
2. Did Jesus also say that God is his God? (answer is "yes")
Therefore Jesus is not God (according to Muslim reasoning!)
Muslims persist in their ignorance of who Jesus was. Jesus was God in Human form and nature. As man, Jesus refers to the Father as my God and my Father. However, he was careful to distinguish his relation to the Father from that of our relation to the Father. Which is why Jesus says "your Father and my Father, your God and my God," but not "our Father and our God."
Muslim mind from its Islamic brain-washing cannot see God"s truth as it is, therefore it is prudent to avoid calling Jesus as just "God," rather emphasize his incarnation when making a confession of his deity, like: "Jesus is God in human form and nature." This way of responding to Muslim questioning will frustrate their evil efforts and at the same time exposes their foolishness.  
Fallacious tactic #6
Here we will see one of the favorite arguments devil has devised against Jesus" deity.  As faithful puppets of the devil both Muslims and Russellites (the so-called Jehovah"s Witnesses) use this argument with the following questions:
1. How many true Gods are there? (Answer is "one")2. Did Jesus say that the Father is the ONLY true God? (Answer is "yes")
€œTherefore, Jesus is not the true God as he gave that title exclusively to the Father,€� (according to Muslim and Russellite reasoning!) 
Jesus is addressing the Father with emphasis when he said "you are the only true God" (Jn.17:3).  For him to say otherwise would be promoting polytheism. Assuming that he could have said differently, like "you are one of the true Gods." This would mean that the Father is one of the true gods, which is a lie. The Bible teaches God exists and He is one. The Bible also explains that that one God is the true God. If someone is addressing the Creator and uses the terms such as "God" or "true God" or "only true God" he/she is referring to the same God, but with various degrees of emphasis.
There is a world of difference between the following two statements. First one is in the Bible and the second one is NOT in the Bible. Had Jesus wanted to exclude himself from the "only true God" he would have stated it like the second statement:
The Father is the "only true God." (Jn.17:3)
The Father alone is the "only true God."
What we see in the Bible is what the statement 1 says. If the statement 2 were to be found in the Bible then the conclusion drawn by the Muslim apologists or the Russellites would become logically true. However, that is not what we see in the Bible. If Jesus were to exclude himself from the title "the only true God," as the questioner would expect us to believe, then he could have said "Father, you alone are the only true God," which is precisely what Jesus avoided in his address. The bottom line is if there is a God, then, He is the "one God" and He is the "true God" and He is the "only true God."
The plurality within Godhead, which we call "Trinity," is way above Muslims" mind. The Allah of Islam is "one" in the sense that he is a mathematical unit "1" which is just above "0" but weaker than every other number!  But the God of the Bible who is the God of Abraham is "one" in the sense that He is a composite unit, but not a mathematical unit "1." The God of the Bible is above every number one can think of. No number can represent Him except perhaps "ˆž" (infinity).  That is why if at all we use mathematical symbols to represent God the three persons within the "Trinity" can be represented like this ˆž+ˆž+ˆž=ˆž (ˆž-ˆž-ˆž=ˆž and ˆž*ˆž*ˆž=ˆž and ˆž/ˆž/ˆž=ˆž).
1. Islamic Allah is just 1, and therefore his value is less than any other number i.e. 1<2€¦
2. The Biblical God is ˆž, and therefore His value is more than any number i.e. ˆž>1€¦
Thankfully, not all Muslims are foolish enough to ask questions like the above. I have personally met Muslims who are wise, open, willing to and capable of engaging in meaningful dialogue in order to know the truth of God. Some of them have found it! God gave this promise, €œAsk, and it shall be given to you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you.€�
 

On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 3:06 PM, HYDER ALI <haom69@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
Dear Dr. Thomas Mathai, Prince Thankachan and Samuel,
 
 
    Debate is a process of exchanging thoughts between two or more ideologies in order to reach closer to the truth in friendly manner. The most required property required for the people who include in this process is common sense. Logic/reasoning, science and scriptures are other criteria on which one should rely while having dialogues for truth seeking. When I back my argument with such commonly accepted facts/arguments, my counterpart has to accept it and if I go against these, I have to leave that claim and accept my fault. Is this happening in this discussion? If not what is the purpose of this discussion?
 
Here Dr. Thomas Mathai, Prince Thankachan and his groups are in a dog-eat-dog situation, a situation of heavy struggle for survival.When I brought your own mails as the speaking evidences against you and whenever the things turn upside down our friends are repeating their old songs like an old gramophone.
 
So Dear Dr. Pastor Thomas Mathai and Pastor Samuel, According to your own mails there are contradictions about Jesus Christ. First you said "For in Jesus Christ dwells all the fullness of God, so Jesus Christ is God.We also know that the Bible gives attributes of deity to God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son of God, and the Holy Spirit of God. We also know that there are not three God"s, they are One."
 
Now you say, "We the Christians never made Lord Jesus Christ as GOD" but I exposed your lies by your own mails. So Mr. Mathai and team, instead of forwarding the copy pasted bulk mails, pls come to the point.
 
Please give me answer to the following questions.
 
1. Is Jesus Christ God?
 
2. If Jesus Christ is God why did you say "We the Christians never made Lord Jesus Christ as God?
 
3. If you never made Jesus Christ as God, why did you say in Jesus Christ dwells all the fullness of God and Jesus Christ is God?
 
4. Is Jesus Christ the begotten Son of God?
 
5. If Jesus Christ is the begotten Son of God, did God marry Mary and mate with her?
 
6. If God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son of God and the Holy spirit of God are not three Gods, are they different parts of God?
 
7. If all the above three are one, how did father and son become in one?
 
8. If they are one, why do you separate the God into father, son and holy spirit?
 
9. Are the holy spirit and angel same?
 
10. Did the angel mate with Mary? or the Holy spirit mate with Mary?
 
There are many many questions arising in our minds due to your above explanations about God and Jesus.
 
Dear All,
 
Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, taught his followers to believe in the God of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, David, Solomon and Jesus, peace be upon them all, and to believe in them as true prophets, messengers and servants of Almighty Allah. He insisted on ranking all the prophets up at the highest level without any distinction between them, and ordered his followers to say the words, "peace and blessings be upon him" after mentioning their names.

He also taught the Torah (Old Testament), Zabur (Psalms) and Enjil (Gospel or New Testament) were originally from the very same source as the Quran, from Allah to the angel Gabriel. He prophesied, predicted and foretold of events to come and they happened just as he had said they would. He mentioned so many things that people of his time could not have known, yet we have seen the evidences manifest over and over throughout the centuries in science, medicine, biology, embryology, psychology, metrology, geology and many other disciplines and even space travel and wireless communications, all of which we take for granted today. He even predicted something from the past that would come true in the future, and it has..

The Quran states pharaoh was drowned in the Red Sea while chasing after Moses and Allah said He would preserve Pharaoh as a sign for the future. Dr. Maurice Bucaille in his book, "Bible, Quran and Science" makes it clear this has happened and the very person of Pharaoh has been discovered in Egypt and is now on display for all to see.This event took place thousands of years before Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, and it came true in the last few decades, many centuries after his death.

Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, or his followers never at any time claimed that he was a son of God or the God-incarnate or a man with divinity €" but he always was and is even today considered as a Messenger chosen by God. He insisted people praise Almighty God alone and not accompany anyone with God. Uniting mankind together for the purpose of worshipping the One God of Adam and all the other prophets, peace be upon them all, was his main motivating cause and his striving was for the sole purpose having everyone to understand and follow the codes of moral excellence set forth by Allah in His revelations.


Today after a lapse of fourteen centuries, the life and teachings of Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, have survived without the slightest loss, alteration or interpolation. They offer the same undying hope for treating mankind's many ills, which they did when he was alive. This is not a claim of Muhammad"s, peace and blessings be upon him, followers, but the inescapable conclusion forced upon by a critical and unbiased history.

Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, claimed to be a servant, messenger and prophet of the Almighty God; the same God of Adam, Abraham, Moses, David and Solomon and of Jesus, the Christ, son of Mary (peace be upon them all). He was a teacher, a social reformer, a moral guide, an administrative colossus, a faithful friend, a wonderful companion, a devoted husband, a loving father, an affectionate grandfather ...
 
No other man in History ever excelled or equalled him in any of these different aspect of life.He ordered people to believe in God as One, without partners, and to follow the Commandments of Almighty God to the best of their abilities.
 
So let us try to follow the commandments of Almighty God to the best of our abilities.
 
Dear friends, My way of looking at life is simply based on the RELIGION €" which is nothing but what is told in the ISLAMIC tradition. Islam is not based on Science and logic but on faith.Different people have different perception. One man's meat could be another man's poison. The quarrels, disputes and tensions among one another breed ill-will and hatred. All this ultimately leads to the damage of the inner soul and ruination of the heart. This will in turn deprive man of Allah's mercy. We have, therefore been advised to keep away from mutual quarrels, disputes and bickering.
 
 
 
 
Your brother in Islam,
 
 
 
 
 
Hyder Ali.
 
 
 
 
 
 
Widuan
 
 
 
 
 
WIDYA[World Islamic Da'wa & Youth Association]
 
 
 
"ASPIRE TO INSPIRE BEFORE YOU EXPIRE''.
www.keralites.net


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