Thursday, 26 March 2020

[www.keralites.net] Re: [TheBecoming] Caste system

 

There are fundamental concepts of right and wrong and even the animals seem to know this. Thus in a monkey community the alpha-male attacked a low ranked monkey without adequate cause. The others watched; but did nothing for fear of the alpha. But after things settled down the other monkeys went to the monkey which was attacked and sat with it and groomed it to express their sympathy and/or empathy. All social animals seem to have this basic sense of good and bad. But the realities of life, especially scarcity of food force us to make compromises.
It was thought that human sacrifice was necessary for one's own welfare in  the face of acute scarcity. All our religions evolved in an age of scarcity when it was thought that taking advantage of others such as in slavery and caste was thought right and normal thing to do. But even when they practiced slavery and caste people knew in their heart that it was wrong. It was all a matter of expediency.
All our religious books were written about 2000 years ago when people accepted caste, slavery and other obnoxious practices as expedient for survival. But with industrial age and scientific cultivation our food scarcity almost disappeared and we could afford democracy and democratic ideals. That is why slavery and caste and other obnoxious practices of the past were abandoned. So it is all a matter of economic feasibility. We practiced slavery and caste in the past because it was more feasible than equality in a world where our mental resources had very little value. now people are more literate and our mental resources are far better than that of our ancestors. What is more slavery and caste are not feasible in a society where people are educated and do sophisticated jobs unlike in an agricultural society of the past.
In the past our ancestors may have done things that seem wrong to us. It is in this regard that one religion blames the past records of another. But the reality was that all ancestral societies were much the same. So there is no point in painting one ancestral society as white and another as black or one religion as white and another as black when the truth is that they were all equally black compared to our modern societies and all of them had their own skeletons in their cupboards. What I think is that there is not point in judging ancient societies by modern ethical standards.. Our ancestors did what they thought was right which may seem wrong to us. So leave the ancestors to their so called crimes. Instead let us get on with our life with its own concepts of right and wrong.
Just as our ancestors did what they thought was right and we think s wrong, there are many things that we think are right and which the future generations may judge as wrong. Thus we now think that nationalism and patriotism are great virtues. But it is a matter of a few generations before people will begin to think otherwise and condemn our practice of punishing people for anti-nationals crimes.
So the idea of right and wrong change from society to society and from time to time in the same society. If we accept change as the only permanent thing in our world, we will see that we do not have to fight over what our ancestors did and compare one ancient society with another

On Fri, 27 Mar 2020 at 07:01, Bodhi Dhanapala bodhi_dhana@yahoo.com [TheBecoming] <TheBecoming@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

"because women began to become monks who then lived with male monks, which opened door for bhrasht aachar in Sangh, and the society began to die because of no production of population. If society dies, nation dies".

This  is simply not true.  More  fornication exists due to the caste system. Upper caste men treat lower caste women as sex toys. Even in temples there were (are) so called "devadasi", women used by  priests for sexual gratification but in the name of religion.

Also, orthodox Hinduism has treated women as "polluted", or "lower in status", and so opposed Buddha's very modern approach of given a near equal place in his religious orders. That is why I left Hinduism. Secondly, there is much in Hinduism that seems to me to be contrary to modern science. Of course, with Pandit Nehru we can say that the Buddha was the greatest Hindu, and that he gave one of the best formulations of Hinduism.


Advait is good for purging out Buddhism, but in the time of Kaliyug, Bhakti is recommended in scriptures; and consequently five/six Vaishnav aacharyas came after Shankaracharya.
None the less, if some one wants to remain an atheist, then Buddhism or Jainism is better; an


It is incorrect to say that Buddhism is atheistic. Buddhism is AGNOSTIC. That is, when a Learned Brahamin asked the Buddha a number of questions like whether the world was created, and who created the world and so on, Buddha remained silent. Then, the Brahamin went away saying that the Gautama Buddha has no answers.
But after he went, the Buddha explained to his disciples the futility and irrelevance of debating certain questions.. However, the answers to such questions will be clear to those who reach enlightenment.
Then the Buddha  gave the parable of the man shot with an arrow, where he said  that,
"if you see a man in pain and in danger of death due to an arrow that is piercing his body, do you waste time asking "Of what wood  is the arrow made of, who created the arrow, what type of a bow has sent it, who shot it etc." The Buddha said, the most important and immediate thing is "to save the life of the man, and remove his pain and suffering as much as possible, instead of asking metaphysical questions. I n much the same way,  Monks, the questions about the creator, and the origin of the universe are ill posed questions.. Instead, go forth and explain the nature and origin of suffering in the world, and how to escape this cycle of suffering in Samsara".

So Buddha did  NOT teach atheism. He said the answers are not knowable (agnostic) until you attain enlightenment and Nirvana.


On Wed Mar 25 2020 09:42:11 GMT-0500 (EST), Suresh Vyas skanda987@gmail.com [TheBecoming] <thebecoming@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 

Ref. line: " Hindu bakshak...in the form of rakshak. "

Kishin ji, I request you share your wisdom to solve Islam issue for the Hindus.

jaya sri krishna!
sv


On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 8:19 AM Kishin Chandiramani ohumkc@yahoo..com [TheBecoming] <TheBecoming@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hindu bakshak...in the form of rakshak.

On Sunday, March 22, 2020, 03:08:13 AM EDT, Palani Swamy swaqaz@gmail.com [TheBecoming] <thebecoming@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 

Sureshji,

The words of d msg are profound! Hope these do open d eyes of Hindus n Dharma rakshakas!

Jay Shri Krishna!

Regards
Palani Swamy



On Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 8:31 AM Suresh Vyas skanda987@gmail.com [TheBecoming] <TheBecoming@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

About unity:

We Hindus have the following common:
- Vedic scriptures
- Vedic Desh Bhaarat
- Vedic Culture, and
- Anti-Hindu and anti-national enemies
==

The above are all the rsons for us to unite and act united to save Dharma, culture, and our Maatrubhuumi.
Now, we have several yogas and several samprdaayas.
Generally, one cannot practice two yogas at the same time or cannot be a member of two sampradaayas at the same time. But each Hindu should respect any other tyye of Hindu, and serious practice one's chosen yoga or saadhnaa, and be under to aacharya / guru of one's own sampradaaya.

Now, because the enemy is common for all Hindus, then all should unite and fight to win.
If they cannot unite with another samprdaaya, then they should compete with another sampradaayas to solve the same problem, but without pulling the legs of the other sampradaaya.

Knowing dharma as it is and living per it correclty is the only way to free us from dharma glaani among us.
If we fail to do it, even the winning over the enemy will not help us/Bhaarat to become Vishwa Guru.
First each of us ought to have a genuine dharma guru from our sampradaaya paramparaa.

jaya sri krishna!

sv
Hinduunation.com






On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 6:59 PM Thirumala Raya Halemane <trhalemane@gmail.com> wrote:
very nice, very insightful about budhism sanghas, and the acharyas. thanks for the comments, shree suresh vyas ji avarugaLu.

my opinion is that the different acharyas etc were talking about the same thing, describing in different ways, to the audiences in front of them, but their eras were not exactly the same, so the perspectives were different, had to be. and the disciples or followers had responsibility to preserve and carry forward each acharya's work and traditions correctly to the extent possible. 

most brahmins in all groups are united by the higher notion of brahmaNya / Brahminism and do not like the politics of causing / creating / maintaining divisions by emphasizing the differences that are usually stated trying to show that one is better than the other, with respect to dwaitha, advaitha etc. 

my view is that advaitha understanding can come only after reaching or passing through dwaitha state, and vishishtadwaitha awareness is along the way. other paths are also possible.. 

the nature of brahmaNya is such that unity at lower people politics style levels is not possible, since truth in all its aspects is most important in brahmaNya, as emphasized in scriptures/ vedas also, and because truth and dharma are usually beyond / higher level compared to politicking at people level or for lower level goals.  

by the way, from what I have heard, the role of the charvaka is somewhat different, it is to make sure there is no compromise regarding the ultimate truth. it is a bit like the role of the responsible opposition in any group discussion, done to make sure the decisions reached are good ones, the correct ones, the objective is not to derail or destroy or damage or falsify. it is an important role. the Sanskrit literal meaning of the word is also like that, it seems.

and yes, it is important to be engaged, to be active, to take good roles, and In the best way possible, subject to our individual limitations, of course.

our many thanks, regards, namaskaars-praNaams and best wishes to you and family and to all. please, keep up the good work. best wishes. aummmm..



On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 10:37 AM Suresh Vyas <skanda987@gmail.com> wrote:
Buddhism was purged out from BHaarat by Advait vedanta dharma propgaged by Adi Shankaracharya because women began to become monks who then lived with male monks, which opened door for bhrasht aachar in Sangh, and the society began to die because of no production of population. If society dies, nation dies.

Advait is good for purging out Buddhism, but in the time of Kaliyug, Bhakti is recommended in scriptures; and consequently five/six Vaishnav aacharyas came after Shankaracharya.

None the less, if some one wants to remain an atheist, then Buddhism or Jainism is better; and communism or Charvakism are not.

jaya sri krishna!
-sv


On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 10:39 AM Jaidev Singh ANAND <singh182@aol.com> wrote:
No doubt many saints all over India, tried their best to promote equality of humans.They succeeded some what. Many low caste Saints were admired and accepted by Higher Castes.

There is inherent strength in Classic Hinduism . Where as 99% of Jews were converted to Islam and Christianity. Only less than 20% of Hindus got converted after 1000 years of foreign efforts.
However , the rediscovered love for Buddhism is lop sided. If Buddha was that great Adi Shankara Acharya and others did a sin in getting rid of Buddhists from India.
Jaidev Singh Anand
USA



-----Original Message-----
From: Babu Gandhi babugandhi@yahoo.com [TheBecoming] <TheBecoming@yahoogroups.com>
To: TheBecoming <TheBecoming@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: tilakbs <tilakbs@hotmail.com>; skanda987 <skanda987@gmail.com>; smdave1940 <smdave1940@yahoo.com>; baig.murad <baig.murad@gmail.com>; litsol <litsol@yahoo.com>; shilpih <shilpih@gmail.com>; khalemane <khalemane@gmail.com>; uhalemane <uhalemane@gmail..com>; ushaammankallu <ushaammankallu@gmail.com>; k.prasad.h <k.prasad.h@gmail.com>; udaya.bhanu.halemane <udaya.bhanu.halemane@gmail.com>; halemane <halemane@gmail.com>; madhurabooks <madhurabooks@gmail.com>; thebecoming-owner <thebecoming-owner@yahoogroups.com>; raya1953 <raya1953@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thu, Mar 19, 2020 11:24 am
Subject: Re: [TheBecoming] Caste system

 
This is a brainwashed writing of the person ignorant of Hinduism or Vedic culture.
Mira kshatriya woman had Rehdas (cobbler) as guru.millions such example.
Please refrain comment on subject you are totally ignorant.
Babubhai 

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 19, 2020, at 7:35 AM, Bodhi Dhanapala bodhi_dhana@yahoo.com [TheBecoming] <TheBecoming@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

  
"Itis claimed that Ashoka the great adopting Buddhism was the direct cause of India's  over 2000 years of slavery".

Emperor Ashoka's stone edicts show that he emancipated slaves (depressed castes) because of Buddha's non-violent teaching. If you take countries in South Asia like Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam and Sri Lanka, the caste system became very mild or even non-existant compared to where ever orthodox Hinduism had its sway. Even in disapora communities in USA, Canada etc., we find that there are Hindu temples which discreetly and under cover practice the caste system, with each caste having its own temple etc. So the caste system has been exported and there have even been "honour killings" when girls tried to get married to boys of a different caste that they meet easily, because children that grow up in the West naturally reject the caste system, and judge people more by how they behave in society. 

Indeed, as far as the Buddha was concerned, a so-called "harijan"  who lives according to the "Arya Ashtaanga Marga" was/is  a  "Brahamin", where the name  "Brahamin"  simply means a person who does not do bad (i.e., immoral) things.

On Thu Mar 19 2020 09:14:58 GMT-0500 (EST), 'Ramakrishnarao, Savaram' srksvl@gmail.com [TheBecoming] <thebecoming@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 
Soul is same for all. Hope no caste or creed or religion for any soul. May be clarfied by learned teachers please

On Thu, Mar 19, 2020, 18:46 Jaidev Singh ANAND singh182@aol.com [TheBecoming] <TheBecoming@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 
Another effect of Buddha was that Indian Rulers adopted Nonviolence as a dogma rather than an enlightened philosophy. Itis claimed that Ashoka the great adopting Buddhism was the direct cause of India's  over 2000 years of slavery.
Jaidev Singh Anand
USA


-----Original Message-----
From: Bodhi Dhanapala bodhi_dhana@yahoo.com [TheBecoming] <TheBecoming@yahoogroups.com>
To: thebecoming <thebecoming@yahoogroups.com>; tilak sreshta <tilakbs@hotmail.com>; Suresh Vyas <skanda987@gmail.com>; shirish dave <smdave1940@yahoo.com>; baig.murad <baig.murad@gmail.com>; Lalit Mishra <litsol@yahoo.com>; Shilpi Halemane <shilpih@gmail.com>; Kavi Halemane <khalemane@gmail.com>; Usha Halemane <uhalemane@gmail.com>; Usha Ammankallu <ushaammankallu@gmail.com>; Keshava PRASAD Halemane <k.prasad...h@gmail.com>; Udaya Bhanu Halemane <udaya.bhanu.halemane@gmail.com>; Rajendra K. Halemane <halemane@gmail.com>; Ravi Bhat Halemane <madhurabooks@gmail.com>; thebecoming-owner <thebecoming-owner@yahoogroups.com>; Thirumala Halemane <raya1953@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wed, Mar 18, 2020 10:47 pm
Subject: Re: [TheBecoming] Caste system

 
The anti-caste movement did not statrt 200 years ago, but 2600 years ago, mostkly with Gautama Buddha, who said that a person becomes a Brahamin not by birth, but by his deeds.
He enrolled in his "sangha", people of all castes and even women.
This was a social revolution that was too much for the Brahamins who were a previlaged class..
They fought back and got rid of Buddhism and movements similar to Buddhism.
Enlightened HinduThinkers like Nagarjuna in ancient times, or Vivekananda and Gandhi in modern times
supported the Buddha's teaching.
Modern rationalist thought that gave strength to Pandit Nehru's movements also supported the simple fact that "a person becomes a Brahamin not by birth, but by his deeds".

Modern genetics has also shown the emptiness and false nature of the doctrine of there being a "caste" property that can be inherited......

On Sun Mar 01 2020 13:17:38 GMT-0500 (EST), Thirumala Halemane <raya1953@yahoo.com> wrote:


thanks very much for the several interesting, helpful, positive comments below.. 
we can perhaps take the following perspective.
when the foreign religions came to India, the foreigners were unable to really understand sanatana dharma society, 
and they had negative attitude towards Hinduism because of aggressiveness and conversion agendas.
we can perhaps say indian society spewed out / created several self-defensive or explaining type actions, including religious and / or political style
we can include Sikhism, brahmo samaj, arya samaj, jiddu Krishnamoorthy, sri aurobindo, ISKCON, shirdi / sai baba etc (and many others) in this list. 
(some people may not like this perspective = then we can just say great men took great decisions to deal with difficulties for the good of people around them !!!!) 
they took or emphasized some aspects of sanatana hindu dharma in trying to appear more likable and friendly to the hostile forces.
one can say, similarly islam has created sufism, Christianity has created Mormon, bahai, scientology etc
we can perhaps say some of them have evolved in their own ways later. and/ or partially hijacked also to be used against Hinduism.
the goal / agenda seems to be to target traditional Hinduism / sanatana hindu dharma traditions, anti-Vedic, anti-brahmin, anti-hindu, anti-dharma.
and,
listing caste in various places may or may not be good or bad, it is only a small point. 
and may be good beginning, in some sense, okay.
listing jati, that is name of the tribe, may be better than listing caste. 
and varna is like profession as shree tilak ji has explained.
anyway, the education system has not worked in favor of the country / civilization, since 1947 also. that is not at all good. 
how minority religions, that is indian Christianity and indian islam, how they view sanatana hindu dharma, will basically
decide how Hinduism will view them, and, that will decide our future, for all of us.....
jai prajaa-prabhuthwa dharma. best wishes. aummmm…..


On Sunday, March 1, 2020, 06:23:25 AM EST, Tilak Shrestha <tilakbs@hotmail.com> wrote:


 
Bose Jee,
Namaste!
You got it backward. Modi Jee\Shah Jee are trying to unite. On the other hand, Mullahs and Missionaries to divide. Hope you would make your opinion as per the facts. Here are the core values to reflect on. A quick survey of their doctrines and histories might help. 
A. Dharma:
Vasundhaiva kutumbakam
Sarva dharma samabhava
Sarve apitu sukhino santu
B. Christianity:
Deuteronomy 12:2-3 Destroy other's temples and destroy images of their Gods.
John 14:6 Jesus is the only way. All non-Christians will go to hell.
Acts 4:12 There is no salvation in any other religions.
John 3:16-18 All non-Christians are condemned to hell already.
C. Islam:
1. Quran: Al Taubah (9 – 29): Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last day, nor hold the forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jaziyah with willing submission. And feel themselves subdued.
2. Ghazwa e Hind: Islam requires Muslims to attack Hindus.
D. Communism:
Dictatorship of proletariat class through the Communist party
Political power come from the barrels of gun

Enjoy, 
Tilak

From: KK Bose <boselaw@gmail....com>
Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2020 4:59 AM
Subject: Re: [TheBecoming] Caste system [1 Attachment]
 

My dear PM Modi ji and HM Amit Shah ji (Iam not addressing the President Kovind ji as he is acting just as a rubber stamp), stop this separatist movement in India, respect all the Bharathvasis be the Adivasis Dalits Hindus Jains Muslims Christians etc and do not divide our people, respect our Bharathvasi culture- Loka Samastha Sukhinobhavanthu, Vasudhaiva Kudumbakam etc.; my country is burning, stop it.

On Sun, Mar 1, 2020 at 7:38 AM DR. LEO REBELLO <prof.leorebello@gmail.com> wrote:
More than 30 years ago, in the School Admission forms of my two sons, I wrote: RELIGION NOT APPLICABLE. CASTE: NOT APPLICABLE. I repeated the same  in Census forms too. When I lectured in 2008, at Jiddu Krishnamurti Foundation in Chennai that in their Rishi Valley schools they should start this, as Krishnamurti did not believe in any dogma. They said it is fantastic idea, but old habits die hard. Till date the simple change has not been made.

In 3 decades, 3 generations of students would have not been discriminated on the basis of Religion and Caste, and Reservation policy which was originally meant for 10 years would not have been carried on.

In 1975, I gave two slogans: Holistic Healing and Holistic Development and Nav Jivan, Nav Bharat, Nav Jagat.  Work on Revolutionary ideas. Work for Change.
Namaste : Dr. Leo Rebello, World Peace Envoy since 2004, Mumbai-India.
 
Join me on Facebook / Twitter / See my Videos on YouTube. Visit my website: www.healthwisdom.org
I have lectured in 65 countries (including thrice in USA), written 51 books.

 

From: R.Rudranarasimham
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 11:27 PM
To: "Sheikh Yusuf Estes" ; Farzana Hassan ; Hammad Usmani ; Puran Gill ; M. Hasher Faruqui ; Syed Zubair Ahmad ; Mohammed Waheeduddin Zubair ; Everythings13 Info ; Cssts25 ; Dr. Tejbir Singh ; "Useph Chennariyil" ; Wasi Ahmad ; Ibrahim Syed ; Dr Syed Moied Ahmad ; nikky-guninder.singh ; Kaurjasprit1986 ; Nirvikar Singh ; Gurcharan. Das ; Vinod Kumar ; to: KK Bose ; Dr. Leo Rebello ; ashiq merchant ; Gangwal Vinod ; cc: Anil Bhanot ; Dinesh Waghmare ; Kumar Arun ; Hindu Association USA ; rashtra1947@aol.com ; Shobhan Ganji ; Dr. Deepak Das Maritius ; Amit Bhadhuri ; Chandar Kohli ; Tilak Shrestha ; asha1knott@gmail.com ; PATRIOTS FORUM DC NATH JI dcnath.private@gmail Mittal ; Madhusudan H Jhaveri ; togadia ; S. Kalyanaraman ; Hindu Existence ; Deivam Muthu ; hindujagruti ; Hindu Samhati ; bhagavaandaastyaagi ; VHP DELHI H Qs DELHI ; Swapan Dasgupta ; Satya D ; Madhav Nalapat ; ashok.vhp@gmail.com ; Mohan Gupta ; jchaddha@gmail.com ; Trishool ; Abhishek Joshi ; sri venkat ; Ajit K. Doval ; arish.2sahani@gmail.com ; Sudhir- Architect ; Babu Suseelan ; brlall@gmail.com ; Brahma Chellaney ; chanda.mehra@planmanconsulting...com ; Devinder Thakur ; Haran BR ; headoffice bharatswabhiman ; H K Bhargava ; jesranibd@yahoo.co..in ; Kamal Malhotra ; Omprakash agarwal ; pratapbmehta@yahoo.co.in ; Prof R K Gupta-India ; Raksha Aggarwal ; Sandhya Jain ; sarkar28@frontier..com ; padma sundaram ; Thirumala Raya Halemane ; Dr. Sudhanshu Trivedi ; kohli_nalin@yahoo.com ; Sidharth Nath Singh ; Smita Srinivasan ; Prashant Teki ; Suresh Sukumaran ; Nitin S Nair ; S Suresh ; Sreevalsan Nambiar ; Sudhir Kumar ; Jose Cherian ; Johesh J Cherian ; sudi_sudi@rediffmail.com ; Thirumala Halemane
Subject: Re: [TheBecoming] Caste system [1 Attachment]

In my analysis, the Caste system in India will survive; not on account of the elite or upper caste people, but due to the persistence of the vast majority of the lower caste people who take a great pride in their own ancestry. For example, the Balmiki or Valmiki caste will not surrender their identity for the very name gives a sense of dignity.

Apart from Brahmin hatred, I have not heard anything useful from people who oppose or deride the caste system. They can destroy the Brahmin caste by literally killing all of them but the Dalits will not forego their own identity.

Rudra Narasimham Rebbapragada
Ann Arbor, MI 48104-4162 USA
SPECIAL FRONTIER FORCE

I HAVE DELETED THE LONG TAIL OF DISCUSSION




 


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Suresh Vyas




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